posted 12-13-2007 02:18 PM            

Sancho Panza"

I was taught in psychology that truth is in fact a subjective entity. There are two seperate concepts---Fact and Truth. We as a profession often use the two terms interchangeably---and in doing so, fall short of the semantic fact of seperation. I will spare readers here the anecdotes as to one person's truth versus another, as we are all familiar with the notions that ---for example an eye-witness may be telling the truth, but be giving faulty facts regarding an incident as it was perceived versus as it happened.
So in polygraph research the term of "ground truth" , by the above caveat, is an empty concept, which doesn't efficiently describe whether something is a fact.
Of course, we don't instruct people to "tell me the fact" , we tell them to "tell the truth." But in my mind, there are infinite truths, but limited facts. On an aside, this is one of the psych components that make sex offender testing so challenging as they almost always have a set of their own truths which to them are concrete, but to us are absurd---and stating such (that a person "has their own truths") is perfectly acceptable within the field of psychology.

Interestingly enough, polygraph school and the field in general may be lacking in possessing the philosophical concepts of truth, despite the fact that we are alleged to be professional handlers of such. Polygraph school should have 3 days of basic philosophy training, as I don't think that the concept of truth stops at psycho-physiological perception.

I swear I am not smoking weed.

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".....cause it has electrolites" --Idiocracy

posted 12-13-2007 02:42 PM            

The first approached the elephant,
and happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
at once began to bawl,
"This mystery of an elephant
is very like a wall."

The second, feeling of the tusk,
cried, "Ho, what have we here,
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear,
This wonder of an elephant
is very like a spear."

The third approached the elephant,
and happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
thus boldly up and spake,
"I see," quoth he,
"the elephant is very like a snake."

The fourth reached out an eager hand,
and felt above the knee,
"What this most wondrous beast
is like is very plain" said he,
"'Tis clear enough the elephant
is very like a tree."

The fifth who chanced to touch the ear
said, "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
deny the fact who can;
This marvel of an elephant
is very like a fan."

The sixth no sooner had begun
about the beast to grope,
Than seizing on the swinging tail
that fell within his scope;
"I see," said he, "the elephant
is very like a rope."

So six blind men of Hindustan
disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
exceeding stiff and strong;
Though each was partly in the right,
they all were in the wrong!"

While all six proclaimed their own truth each posessed significantly less than the whole truth.

Stat I believe you when you say you aren't smoking weed, but are you remembering to take the rest of the stuff the Doctor ordered. besides that Sancho fellow is a devious cur and his broad statements might be an attempt to draw someone out.

posted 12-13-2007 03:06 PM            

I agree stat. More training.

We have a tendency to make the same mistake with truth that Frued made with psychology - perceiving our mental models in a materialistic way, as if truth were a substance or thing.

A common mistake is to assume equivariance of truth and deception.

We can be mistaken and incorrect without being dishonest.

The fable of the elephant is an example of empirical truth, but is also an example of subjective truth.

If we are going to have a philosophical conversation about truth (which would be very interesting), we have to start with a broader understanding of our foundational answer to two questions.

• What kinds of things can be true?

• What does it mean to say that something is true?

Another common mistake, which I've even heard from polygraph trainers is to replace the construct of truth with "belief." Religious people sometimes also interchange these, and I've heard polygraph trainers

Only psychotic people (out of touch with reality) believe things that are not real.

Non-psychotic persons know when they lie and why they lie.

For fun, look up Bertrand Russel and the correspondence theory of truth. Also look up the modified correspondence theory of truth.

Also lookup rationalist philosophy arguements re truth, and post-modern/deconstructionist truth. You'll find some of religious types (not that there's anything wrong with that) who act on impulse to refute post-modern ideas, but make the same mistake they accuse others of, in that they do not really endorse rationalist ideas but also replace the concept of truth with belief - goes back to the questions above.

Its a lot easier to define deception than truth, and the two are not inverse in a simple mathematical way.

Look up pragmatic truth - which is more like what we use in polygraph, legal and science settings - in which we assume truth when we are reasonably sure that information is not misleading or deceptive.

'nuff, or I'll never get anything done.

r

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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 12-13-2007 03:33 PM            

"I don't give them hell. I just tell the truth about them and they think it's hell"

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Ex scientia veritas

posted 12-14-2007 10:20 AM            

I think they are shying away because they have observed Sancho will NOT be easily defeated or bullied. Puppy got its nose whacked a few times, and is now shy.

Be patient, and the right adversary will appear. If not, then you've squelched their efforts a little for now.

Good work.

Iv'e wondered if Jesper is just a troll, or a real whack-job. That "Deutschland uber alles" stuff in his signature is probably still offensive to some.

r

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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 12-14-2007 02:38 PM            

_____________________________________

as to the "care question I was concerned that maybe that on had been hammered out once and I missed it.

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Ex scientia veritas

posted 12-14-2007 02:45 PM            

One little word can make a difference.

Hopefully, the error was obvious.

Sancho will NOT be easily defeated - to suggest otherwise is absurd.

posted 12-14-2007 03:45 PM            

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Ex scientia veritas

posted 12-15-2007 12:25 AM            

The math involved in most stats problems is basic stuff. Statistics is really about conceptual problems. Plus, there are people that know a whole lot more than I about all of this.

I'm absolutely sure I'm NOT the smartest person who reads this forum, in the room with me at present, on my block, or even in my family. Its just fun to solve problems.

Stay warm everyone. I'm out for a few days.

r

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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 12-16-2007 10:44 AM            

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"I'm going to spend a lot of time on Social Security. I enjoy it. I enjoy taking on the issue. I guess, it's the mother in me." --G.W. Bush, Washington D.C., April 14, 2005

posted 12-16-2007 12:50 PM            

you have my vote.

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The only thing we need is a forum upgreydd, so we can create polls.

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speaking of votes, don't forget.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22087628/

Vote early. Vote often. Just vote.

r

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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)